Friday, May 09, 2008The AoA lawsuit muckraking continuesOnce again, William Schpero made it to the front page of today's daily Dartmouth for what seems to be the only role he plays in that publication - exposing the lies disseminated by the AoA executive committee majority. Thankfully, this particular article is surprisingly unbiased and actually mentions pro-lawsuit executive committee member, Frank Gado's opinions. Now if only that part made it to the front page along with AoA President Bill Hutchinson's claims that the AoA executive committee never made sufficient attempts for dialogue with the Board of Trustees prior to the board-packing plan.More after the jump. The article conveniently begins with In the race for the executive committee of the Association of Alumni, supporters of the Association’s lawsuit against the College have claimed that the Board of Trustees ignored or denied several of the Association’s requests to meet prior to the Board’s September announcement of changes to Dartmouth’s governance structure. Board Chairman Ed Haldeman ‘70, however, said ... Association President Bill Hutchinson ‘76, who opposes the suit, has maintained, along with College officials, that the executive committee made “one and only one” attempt to meet with the Board, and the Board complied. Then the first paragraph after the fold, is the first to mention Frank Gado. The rest of the article continues to offer Gado's claims as a counterpoint to Hutchinson's. Later in today's issue, the Opinion Page prints their Verbum Ultimum column. In this column they explicitly cite Schpero's article as if the entirety of the article were what was printed on the front page: As today’s news article (“AoA members differ on dealings with Board”) makes clear, the executive committee made only one official effort at a meeting with the Board to discuss the proposed governance changes before they were announced publicly. Even though pro-lawsuit members of the committee and their supporters have claimed that the committee persistently and seriously pursued the option of mediation, no resolution was ever passed on the matter. Thank god, the Opinion section printed J. Michael Murphy's (petition candidate, class of '61) article, which states the facts and points out how Bill Hutchinson, John Mathias '69, and the Verbum Ultimum's accusations are misleading. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by Nisanth A. Reddy at 12:16 PM (6 comments) More on the Senior SurveyJake Baron '10 dissects the recently released senior survey. He's taken some of the graphs out of the pdf, so head on over and take a look. Here's just one interesting take home point from one of the graphs:There are a few points of interest here, particularly in the campus life graph. First, notice the high rating students give to “Social life.” With this in mind, the administration’s simmering distaste with Greek-letter organizations and the recent campus obsession with finding “alternative social spaces” look a lot less useful, and a lot more like ideologically-driven social engineering. Read the full post, here. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 3:21 AM (0 comments) Thursday, May 08, 2008More administrative bloat on the wayAccording to the front page of today's D, the College is looking for an "information security officer." Here's why:Confidential research and security information can be transmitted by the click of a button or by the exchange of a simple CD. A professor at one of Dartmouth’s peer institutions learned this when one of her trusted post-doctorate students tampered with data on her computer and some of her valuable research-related CD’s were stolen. To counteract these security risks, the College is currently searching for a candidate to take on the role of chief information security officer. Apparently the solution to professors being careless with their data is to hire a new bureaucrat rather than teach them how to secure their data... Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by M. Heddaya at 2:04 PM (8 comments) Dartmouth Medical School in the NewsThe New York Times reports on "Slow Medicine", an approach to geriatric care based in research conducted at the Dartmouth Medical School.Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by Christine S. Tian at 10:57 AM (0 comments) Hearing Out the ProfsToday’s Daily Dartmouth features an editorial which, like so many of the editorials we've seen lately, is differentiating petition trustees from non-petition trustees—but the issue at stake here is shockingly not 1891 or parity-related. This time, Joseph Asch '79 is criticizing non-petition trustees for not reaching out to Dartmouth professors who, according to Asch, “ more than any other campus group, have a broad perspective on Dartmouth, one that comes from interactions throughout the institution and long experience with previous presidents and deans. If all of our trustees could tap into this information, they might come to an understanding of why so many alumni are concerned about the direction of the College.” Asch’s ultimate criticism is that “unlike the petition trustees, who are active in learning about the College, non-petition trustees seem to base their understanding of Dartmouth on the presentations that the Wright administration prepares for their quarterly meetings.” This is a problem that has an easy solution, according to Asch. Asch suggests that the non-petition trustees should do some of their own field-work, personally meet professors, and ultimately rely less on the power-points and presentations put together by Parkhurst. For more on his proposed solution, read on here. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by Emily Esfahani-Smith at 10:15 AM (11 comments) Why not Just Send a Check?Students buy jeans, help Somali women.P.S. This, courtesy of the comments. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 2:48 AM (3 comments) Wednesday, May 07, 2008Wright on the New GI BillPresident Wright has a piece in the Chronicle of Higher Education on the new GI Bill. Here's a small sample:Yet despite the overwhelming historical success of educational benefits for veterans, such support for those who served in Iraq and Afghanistan has, unfortunately, proved to be n unnecessarily complicated matter. Remarkably, Congress allowed the legislation for the new GI bill to sit for a year with no action on it. The three major arguments of those opposed: the expense of adding another entitlement program; Pentagon concerns that re-enlistments might suffer if too many people left the military to pursue higher education; and reservations by some in Congress about providing federal tuition dollars to wealthy institutions. The full essay can be found here. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 2:25 PM (0 comments) Tuesday, May 06, 2008New TDR Issue Finally UpAfter some technical difficulties with our server, we have finally been able to upload the full issue to our website. Some of the new articles available for your reading pleasure are:
Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by Nisanth A. Reddy at 5:12 PM (26 comments) Monday, May 05, 2008Dartmouth has the nicest in the Ivy LeagueMs. Maura Pennington '08 wrote a letter to the editor in response to Amelia Rawls' op-ed piece in the Washington Post. Rawls contended that the students at top universities lack the compassion to be completely selfless; she suggests that our good deeds are merely ploys to pad our resumes. Ms. Rawls had this to say about our success and community service:I'm not saying different. I'm saying that sometimes some of these students will denounce world hunger but be unfriendly to the homeless. They will debate environmental policy but never offer to take out the trash. They will believe vehemently in many causes but roll their eyes when reminded to be humble, to be generous and to "do what is right." Pennington countered with her Dartmouth experience saying that she has met innumerable "nice" classmates who have given her faith in our characters. A quote from her letter: I have found more classmates than I can name who are caring, conscientious, compassionate and downright nice. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by Nisanth A. Reddy at 4:20 PM (3 comments) More Transparency on the Way?In a favorable new development, the College has decided to start making the biannual senior surveys available to the public. Previously, the collected data had only been available to the Board of Trustees and administrators. Here is a pdf of the most recent survey—the class of 2006. According to the Daily D, at least partial credit is due to the ex-President of SA, Travis Green '08, who pushed to make the findings public. Finally a worthwhile achievement out of SA.Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 3:49 PM (2 comments) Rago '05 opines on Venkatesan scandal in WSJThe Opinion section of today's Wall Street Journal features an excellent piece by former Review editor-in-chief Joseph Rago '05. A choice excerpt:I once wrote a term paper for a lit-crit course where I "deconstructed" the MTV program "Pimp My Ride." A typical passage: "Each episode is a text of inescapable complexity . . . Our received notions of what constitutes a ride are constantly subverted and undermined." It received an A. Mocking deconstruction? Now that's postmodern. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by M. Heddaya at 2:59 AM (10 comments) Sunday, May 04, 2008Subversive Models Needed!!>Date: 04 May 2008 Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 7:30 PM (5 comments) Saturday, May 03, 2008Will Schpero: I Worship at the Feet of Dartmouth UndyingIn the same piece that Mostafa linked to in the post below, there is also this little gem:In an unrelated development on Thursday, the pro-lawsuit Association executive committee majority voted to censure Dartmouth’s Office of Alumni Relations for “providing its listserve and postal addresses to some members of alumni groups while denying those same means of access to other duly elected officers.” Quite frankly I'm surprised Schpero even mentioned this, given his track record. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 8:28 PM (11 comments) Friday, May 02, 2008Daily D: Alumni hate pro-parity polls, themselvesA hilariously biased front-page story from today's D:Alumni have allegedly been subjected to “push polls” favoring the pro-lawsuit candidates in the Association of Alumni election over the last week, according to active alumni. The article is especially hilarious in light of Daniel Belkin '08's opinion piece Wednesday that alleged pro-parity alumni have a "monopoly" on media attention. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by M. Heddaya at 1:28 PM (41 comments) Thursday, May 01, 2008AoA Statement, What Happened Last Summer?The AoA Executive Committee just contacted The Dartmouth Review with the following statement. Of particular interest is the penultimate paragraph, where the EC explains the steps they went through last summer to dialogue with the Board of Trustees—before the lawsuit.President Hutchinson went on to state that the Executive Committee made “one and only one” attempt to meet with the Board regarding the governance study. In fact there were many attempts to interact with the Board. Our formal letter of May 30 received no response. Written inputs from individual committee members received no response other than a courtesy acknowledgement of receipt. Chairman Haldeman met in-person only with president Hutchinson, having been informed that our president did not represent the opinions of the committee majority. One teleconference did occur during the last week in August, involving two trustees, but the committee was informed that the governance recommendations were essentially complete; there was no sit-down working session to consider alternatives. Shortly after the trustee decision was announced, several executive committee members made personal overtures to various Board members suggesting legal action would be held in abeyance, if the Board would postpone implementation of their plan during a mediation process. These overtures were rejected. The full statement, below the fold. Association of Alumni of Dartmouth College Issues Election Campaign Corrections Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 3:05 PM (40 comments) Daily D: At Least We Are Not Charging You a Copyright FeeApparently the Daily D was doing all those outraged by the comic a favor. From a blog called Angry Asian Man:Too bad the The Dartmouth charged them $437.40 to print the one-page ad. You think they'd give them a break, considering that it was The Dartmouth that made the idiotic mistake of printing the damn comic strip in the first place. Apparently, The Dartmouth even claimed they were doing them a favor by not charging a copyright fee for re-using the comic.The ad, courtesy of Angry Asian Man, below the jump. ![]() ![]() Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 12:43 AM (12 comments) Wednesday, April 30, 2008TDR Interview: Priya Venkatesan '90Review correspondent Tyler Brace conducted the following two interviews with Prof. Priya Venkatesan after news broke here on Saturday afternoon that she was threatening to sue seven students from her Writing 5 classes. Prof. Venkatesan—now of Northwestern University—is currently still planning to sue the College. —A.S.By Tyler Brace. The Dartmouth Review: My first question is—you are an alumna of Dartmouth—what was your experience at Dartmouth like? Was there any racism or bigotry? Was it a positive experience? Prof. Priya Venkatesan: I had a great experience. TDR: What made you decide to teach at Dartmouth? PV: I wanted to be in the capacity to reproduce the positive undergraduate experience that I had. TDR: You mentioned in one of the e-mails you sent out to your students that Dartmouth has a reputation for…. PV: I can’t be specific about that, but Dartmouth does have a reputation for conservative and sheltered. Dartmouth is very secluded, very sheltered. TDR: Moving on to the issue at hand, could you comment on Tom Cormen [Chairman of Dartmouth's Writing Program]? PV: Sure, I am like, I really have a lot of work right now, I have two book manuscripts to work on, that doesn’t even include the manuscript about my life in higher education, I have two grants to work on, I have an article to work on, I have three articles to work on, I really have so much work to do and you would not even believe, I really have a lot of work to do. I am not the kind of person who wants to make a big fuss about petty or trivial things. So, I have a lot of things to do that I could be focusing my attention on in very productive ways. TDR: I can understand that. If you like, I can just ask you a different question if you want. PV: To your question, Tom Cormen was consistently rude to me and he was very unsupportive of my teaching in the Writing Program. I am perplexed as to why he would give me an offer to teach four sections in the Writing Program and then show absolutely no support, no professional support, and I wasn’t even looking for personal support, no professional support or guidance, and trying to do my best job to be a writing instructor. Now to give you the background, I taught writing in my graduate school at the University of California San Diego. I was what they call a teaching assistant. The students get graded by teaching-assistants in the research universities, not like Dartmouth where the professors grade the students. I was a teaching assistant at the University of San Diego, and I have three teaching evaluations. They were all spectacular. They were all spectacular. They were all positive. I could fax them to you. I don’t mind, I could honestly fax them to you, but no professional support or guidance from the beginning. But, I was confident in my ability to teach expository writing, so I went about it with very little support or direction from the department. That is, in itself, very unusual to have a writing program that does not have a structured orientation program for its new writing staff. Very, very extraordinary. Very out of the ordinary. Very unusual. [The whole interview, after the jump.] Usually if you go to schools that have established writing programs or institutes for writing they will give you a two to three day orientation that introduces you to teaching that gives you some pointers, some advice, some suggestions on how to be the most effective teaching instructor. These orientations are not meant to dictate your teaching philosophy or ethics. They are meant to orient you, to guide you in the teaching process to be an effective expository writing teacher. There was no orientation. That in itself is questionable. It is very questionable. It raises flags about the quality of the writing program. I did approach some administrator saying where’s the orientation. She gave me this blank, actually it was a phone conversation, so I can’t see a blank face, but it was like a blank expression over the phone, like I don’t know what you’re talking about. There was no orientation. So Tom, when the students started complaining about me to Tom, Tom did bring me to his office a couple of times and said, “Tell me how things are going.” But what is unusual about what Tom did as a professor, as a writing program director, is that he did not side with the colleague. That is also very, very strange. That is odd. In any professional academic setting it is not academic de rigueur to go against a colleague when students are bitching about them. I don’t know how else to put it. TDR: Right, right. PV: Tom did not side with me. He did not show any official support for me. When incidents happen, when suspect incidences were happening, he would essentially try to dictate my teaching philosophy. He used very strong language in telling me what I needed to do to meet the needs of the students. I think yeah, you need to meet the needs of the students. But sometimes students have a different agenda than just learning. Who knows, what the agenda of the students are. I can’t read their minds. That is very strange because when I talked to my colleagues in California, they came back to me and they said, “Why isn’t your boss supporting you?” And I said, “I don’t know.” That is really strange that the boss doesn’t support you, we’re colleagues. Something more pedagogical is that I question the administrative judgment of Dartmouth for putting someone who is a professor of computer science in the capacity of directing a writing program. How? My first question to that is because I’m not a computer scientist and I don’t know what their training is. But I was taught about writing. I basically had years of experience teaching writing before coming to Dartmouth. Why is it that someone who is in computer science given the directive to promote the interests of writing at Dartmouth? My first response is what is someone who has a computer science background going to know about teaching writing? What are they going to know? They haven’t been trained in literature or composition rhetoric. They have no training in that. I’m not even going to give you the rumors that were circulating about Tom, that’s just gossip. I’m not going to get unprofessional. I’m just going to give you my personal assessment of Tom Cormen as my supervisor and as director of the Writing Program. I’m not going to go in to rumors. TDR: Thanks for that. Why do you think a pretty significant amount of your students did complain about you? Why do you think that is? PV: I think that sometimes when you have some students and some instructors they mix like oil and water. That could just be the explanation. It happens all the time, Tyler. Sometimes when a person goes into a corporation, they mix like oil and water. Sometimes when a person goes into a fellowship at a research institution like the one that I’m at now, the supervisor and the fellow mix like oil and water. It just happens a lot. TDR: I can certainly understand that. PV: I can’t speak for the students. I don’t know what their expectations were of me. When I was a student at Dartmouth I tried my best to show respect for the professor and to meet his or her expectations. My job was not to bully the professor, that was not my job. That was not my role. My role was not to bully the professor. My role was not to convince the professor that they were stupid or didn’t know anything or to question their knowledge. I was never aggressive with any of my professors. Now that courtesy was not returned to me. My students were very bully-ish, very aggressive, and very disrespectful. TDR: What kind of bullying did you experience in your classes? PV: It came out in the D [the College's newspaper, the Daily Dartmouth] about the applause, so I don’t want to go through that. But that was very disturbing, that was a very disturbing event, so that’s just one example. There was also one instance when I was demonstrating an example, I would do any method I could to try to—that was the problem. The students manipulated the situation so that they totally undermined the academic system. The whole academic system was undermined. The whole integrity of the course, the whole academic integrity of the course was undermined because it never became about the students meeting my expectations, it became about me meeting their expectations. They abrogated that right. They abrogated, they turned the tables around. Bullying, aggressive, and disrespectful. It became no longer came about them meeting my expectations, and this through the process of totally undermining my professorial authority, questioning my knowledge in very inappropriate ways, so that it no longer became about the proper academic way about them meeting my expectations. No, it was about me meeting their expectations, because what were they going to do if I didn’t meet whatever expectation they had, whether it would be, I wasn’t white, whatever, I was different, I talked about ideas that were strange, I came off as very eccentric. I can’t make things up, I can’t read their mind. So they would use any type of vulnerability. They would use this and write these horrible evaluations that hardly reflected my efforts and quality of my teaching. TDR: You mentioned how your students maybe expected someone who was white, in talking to them and reading their evaluations, you don’t really see anything referencing race. What do you have to say about that whole aspect? PV: I think that’s a really good question and I kind of have to step back and say that I think, and this is really the only comment that I’m going to make, is that I think that discrimination is very hard to prove, and I think that my claim is going to be very hard to prove because I think that discrimination is very subtle. I think that right now because there are so many laws out there, slavery is outlawed, we have the Civil Rights Act, we have all these laws in place to protect minorities, to protect women, to protect the elderly, so we have these laws in place. No one made a comment about my ethnicity. That did not happen, and I have to say that it did not happen. So what is the basis of my claim? I think that the basis of my claim is that the behavior, like I said in which the tables were turned around, was partially motivated by race. I am going to be the first one to say that is going to be very difficult to prove in a court of law, but I think if I get my story out there and tell them this is my assessment of what happened, then I think that’s a social good. TDR: So with regards to the racism allegation, would you say this is more of a general feeling than any specific event? PV: There were a couple of events. There were a couple of events. TDR: Could you elaborate for us? PV: I think at one point when I was reading a paper during the writing workshop, there were two students, they were actually the more obnoxious students in the class, they were the impolite ones, who would have a little conversation about how geeky or how socially inept an Indian student was. You could tell that it was an Indian because the name they mentioned was South-Asian, and I know that, because I can recognize South Asian names. That was one example. In terms of any other specific incidences, it may be more difficult to prove. To say that that behavior, that type of disrespect is because I’m an East-Indian female is a little bit, maybe it’s a leap, but I don’t think it’s an irrational belief. I think it could be based on reality. I think when I detail these events that I just told you, about Tom Cormen’s attitude, about all these things, it’s the attorney who knows the law and that can make the assessment about whether I have a legal claim about discrimination. I can’t make that claim. All I can do is write down the events that took place in the most factual matter, and that’s what I’m in the process of doing right now. TDR: Is the book definitely going to happen? PV: Books always happen. They always happen. I’m [working] with a literary agent right now, I’m waiting to get more responses from them. Dartmouth is just going to be one chapter in the book. But I think like the things I’m telling you right now are going to be in the book. Tom Cormen as a writing director, his treatment of me. I talked with a reporter from the Dartmouth Independent. It was a two hour phone conversation, I’m serious, I went into really great detail about what every student did and about what Tom Cormen did that was unethical. Both the students and Cormen being unethical. Unethically behaving or disrespectful, or what the students exactly did. I’m kind of burnt out from talking about specifics. But what I can do, when that article comes out from the Dartmouth Independent, and you have questions about that, feel free to call me and I can address whatever questions you have about the incidences. TDR: You mentioned how the students were bullying you, saying certain things, were there any incidences when you might have done that. Several students told me that once you came in the room and were calling them fascist demagogues. Do you deny that? PV: Not true. I never name called any student in that class. I never name called any student in that class. What happened was that I went into class after that whole clapping incident, and I said. ‘What you did was horrific. What you did was really bad.’ Not bad, I didn’t accuse them of being bad, I said what you did was unacceptable. They started arguing with me. I said fine. You think you know everything. You think you know everything without the knowledge base to boot, without the training, you think you have a command of all the knowledge in the world at this stage in your life, then I’m sorry, that is fascism and that is demagoguery. When I made the two words fascism and demagoguery I looked at the picture on the wall. I made sure that I did not look at the students, and that I did not make any personal attacks on them. The fact of the matter is that by being so arrogant about their command of knowledge about arguing with me about every point that I was making and that’s really arrogant. That’s very arrogant because frankly, and I’m not trying to be an academic elitist, but frankly, they don’t even have a B.A. They’re freshmen. They’re freshmen. The maturity that they had, and I think that’s what it is, I think it’s a lack of maturity, I don’t think it’s any character flaw, I just think it’s a lack of maturity and when they grow up they’ll find that it’s really tough to succeed in the real world and I really will start respecting my professor. TDR: In one of the many course reviews of your classes, and through talking to some of your students, I’ve heard them say you’re not open to other opinions. For example, you banned questions in class. I was told you said something about them not having their Ph.D., B.A., Master’s, etc. PV: This is a total misrepresentation. I don’t know what is motivating their behavior. I am not out to get them. I gave them mostly very good grades. I don’t know what the issue is to why this absolute, demonification of me, I don’t understand that. Rarely have I encountered this. The sense that I’m being demonized by a community that I had nothing against and with good intentions of joining, anyway that’s an aside, what I did was for the majority of my two sections between fall and winter before this incident, I permitted questions during lecture. But I noticed that many students were dissatisfied with that because some of them really did want to learn from me and hear my lecture out but that these questions were derailing the lecture, so I basically said to the students after this incident that I was not going to permit questions during lecture but right after lecture we would have a discussion section or if we have a class that is more discussion oriented then you’re permitted to ask questions. One of my colleagues from San Diego told me, and I’m not sure I agree with it, but she told me, and please don’t quote me with saying that I agree with this, don’t take it out of context, but she said the classroom is not a democracy and the way she runs her classroom is with an iron fist. I’m not like that. I’m not the iron fist, but I think my genuine attempt to teach them—I think they tried to take advantage of some of my ability not to be this iron fist. I think a lot of professors are like, I’m the boss of the classroom and you listen to me, and that’s probably the norm. I’m a little more lenient, I’m a little more liberal, and I think this was kind of taken advantage of. I think also that many times when I was lecturing, many of the students would take over the class. While they took over the class, the students that were questioning me would not question the student, but they would consistently question me. In other words, in that setting, the student had more authority than me. Usually the student that questioned me was a white male. When this white male spoke he was given more authority of knowledge, more respect than I was given. I think that was an example of racism. So this kind of thing was going on. It made me feel very uncomfortable. But I did not ban questions I just said leave them for the lecture, because what was happening was that people were asking questions that would just derail the lecture, and a lot of people did not like that, so I said questions after lecture. This demonification, this criminalization of very rational behavior, is very disturbing that it takes place. I don’t know if it’s just endemic to Dartmouth. Dartmouth is the only place I experienced it. TDR: There is one specific incident where I heard from one of the girls in your class who was pretty outspoken, and one day she hadn’t spoken for a while and you said, “Could we have a round of applause for this girl, she hasn’t spoken in ten minutes?” PV: She was probably the most abrasive, the most offensive, the most disruptive student. She ruined that class. She ruined it. She ruined it. That class actually had a lot of potential, there were some really bright kids there, but every time she would do a number of things that were very inappropriate. For instance, I had basically gotten a hold of Blackboard technology, but I was making some mistakes too because I was new to the system, and every time that some link was wrong or some link wasn’t set up right, [girl x] in the beginning of class would point this out to everybody. Then what happened was, I was lecturing on morals and ethics and she just gave me this horrible look, and I was pretty disturbed. I just said what is going on here? The problem with [girl x] is that she can’t take criticism. She can’t take the fact that there is something wrong with her work. Now, some people are like that, a lot of people are like that, unable to take criticism, but the fact of the matter is that I have the PhD in literature, I make the assessment if someone has talent for philosophy, literary theory, and literary criticism. A student might say, well, the hell with you I’m still going to become a literary critic, I had to do that, there were people who criticized me while I was a student, you’re not a good writer or whatever, but I said well I’m still going to go ahead with my goals, but I never made any personal attacks on them or made life difficult for them or was rude to them. I just did the socially acceptable way of dealing with criticism, and [girl x] is the kind of student who does not know the socially acceptable way of dealing with criticism. She thinks the way to go about doing it is to go to my superior or to try to undermine my ability to teach the class. One of the things that she did, this is also really interesting, was that she would always ask me how to spell things. That was her thing. She would say how to do you spell this? How to you spell that? I mean—what am I supposed to do?—so I would tell her. One time Tom Cormen was sitting in the class, and she asked me, how many T’s are in Gattaca. This was the kind of question she was asking, “how many T’s are in Gattaca?,” and I was about to answer her and Tom Cormen pre-empted me, “two t’s.” I’ll leave you to interpret it. TDR: No. No, I don’t understand that. PV: I have to tell you: it means tenure track. TDR: Oh, okay. PV: Because I wasn’t tenured track. TDR: Oh, okay, yes. PV: They were trying to intimate that I wasn’t ready for tenure track. TDR: Yes, okay, I didn’t realize that’s what that meant. PV: I’m kind of making this leap because this is the kind of subversiveness that was going on in that environment. That [girl x] would ask how many t’s are in Gattaca and that Tom Cormen would respond, “two T’s” as if I had no grasp on tenure track. ..but with [girl x], something’s going on with her. I’m not a doctor, but she’s not all there. [Editor's Note: At this point, Mr. Brace ran out of tape. What follows is from a second interview conducted the next day.] Venkatesan: I’ve decided not to pursue any litigation with regard to my grievances at this point, and I have also decided that if sources outside of Dartmouth approach me, that I will respond by saying that this is, you know, what I’ve said, and not prefer to comment on this matter. I know that right now that I don’t want my family to suffer, and I don’t want people to work with in this community to be affected by what I’m doing, so it is as much in my interest as it is theirs to withdraw pursuing a legal avenue. You know, this is not to absolve Dartmouth of any wrongdoing, but to show that, um, you know, it’s tough to address these kind of issues against a really large institution, being just one person myself. So, I’ve kind of come to that conclusion, that this is what I should be doing. I know that it may seem that I’m kind of like copping out, but I think it’s in my best interests at this point. I think—I’m really very touched that people have shown interest in my issue and in my matter. But you know, I just don’t know if going legal is going to be the way to go. TDR: So, are you still going to be pursuing the book? PV: Definitely. Probably the way to go—you know, I think, I just don’t feel like the courts are the way to address this issue. I feel like by getting my narrative out there about my experiences, and then leaving the interpretation open to the reading public, that would be great. If people are interested in my story, you know, then I would be more than delighted to share it with them. But right now, the legal road is probably causing more harm than good. TDR: I have a few questions about your educational background and how it relates to the courses you teach, and some other specific questions. Yesterday in a lot of the interviews you granted, you referred to “the clapping incident”, and I was just wondering if you could explain to me what exactly that was. PV: Sure. It’s basically we were talking about The Death of Nature by Carolyn Merchant. I believe I talked about how the scientific revolution—what effect it had on women of the period. In the context I brought up the witch trials of the Renaissance, and I was trying to make to make the claim—it was kind of a paraphrasing of Merchant’s argument, it’s not necessarily mine—that—I really want to get this right, so give me a second—what exactly did I say? I made the argument that—I’m trying to put this in context now—I made the argument that in many cases science and technology did not benefit women, and if women were benefiting science and technology, it was an aftereffect. It was not the goal of science and technology. It was a very feminist claim, and you may not agree with it. But that was Merchant’s argument; it wasn’t my argument, and I’m not a feminist scholar, so I was really making an argument that wasn’t mine and paraphrasing. But there was one student who really took issue with this—and he took issue with this, and he made a very—I’d call it a diatribe, and it was sort of like, well—science and technology, women really did benefit from it, and to criticize patriarchal authority on the basis that science and technology benefited patriarchy or men, was not sufficient grounds for this type of feminist claim. And he did this with great rhetorical flourish; it was very invective, it was a very invective sort of tone. And I think what happened afterwards was that some people—I can’t name them, and I don’t know how many there were, but it was a significant number—started clapping for his statements. It was a very humiliating moment to my life; it was extremely humiliating, that my students would clap against me, when all I was trying to do was talk to them about arguments and argumentation, in the light of what I had been trained with. In other words, it’s kind of interesting that when you are trained in graduate school, it’s sort of like, you know, you’re trained in this kind of—I don’t want to say it’s political—you must be aware that most college campuses are very liberal, right? TDR: Oh yes, certainly. PV: Yeah, and the training which you receive, it’s very much slanted toward a particular political point of view. And it’s almost unstated—I’m not saying that this is good or bad, I’m just saying that this is the case—but certainly political framework is absorbed into academic material, and you must be aware of that by reading, you know, arguments by academics. You know, they talk about things such as Marxism—that’s just the intellectual way of thinking about it. But maybe to the general public, these are issues that are not considered objects of general discussion. You know what I mean? In other words, talk about, you know, in French theory—we talk about Lacanian psychoanalysis. Lacan was a very radical psychoanalyst, but he’s considered almost like a god, Jean-François Lyotard… Bruno Latour—highly regarded in the field of science and technology studies. But these students aren’t aware of the framework in which I was training. They’re not; they’re just coming into college. So right there, there’s a discrepancy between what I know and how I was trained and their worldview. Do you see what I’m saying? TDR: Yes. PV: So there was immediate friction, because basically the concepts that I was trying to bring to them were concepts I was not inventing on my own. They were concepts that were part of the field, and I was trying to bring it to the table. It offended their sensibilities, because the whole course of “Science, Technology, and Society” was about problematizing science and technology, and explaining the argument that science is not just a quest for truth, which is how we think about science normally, but being influenced by social and political values. Now I’m not telling you this to convince you of this. I’m just saying that this is the framework with which I approached the course—that I wanted to bring this view that science and technology; there’s an ethics behind it. This type of argumentation—the reason I did that in the context of expository writing, I thought “by reading arguments, they will learn how to form arguments, think better, and write better.” That was my goal, because when you think better, you write better. All this offended their sensibilities, and there’s ways of responding of arguments that offend your sensibilities. The way not to do it is to be abrasive, rude, and engaged in this type of rhetoric. And that is why I had a lot of difficulties in dealing with the students in the class. What effectively happened was that my voice was taken away, and it was taken over by a lot of students. And I know that one of the students complained to the dean that he stopped paying attention in class. And I said “Well, of course they stopped paying attention, because the class had been taken over by a bunch of students who were just discussing it by themselves on their own, and it became very boring, because they didn’t have the argumentation permitted to them. They were just discussing without any framework, so that’s why the class was somewhat degraded by the end, and people complained because of that, but I felt pretty much restrained—constrained. I couldn’t negotiate the class because it had gotten to this level, that my voice and my authority were effectively eliminated from that class. I’m not trying to dramatize it; I’m just trying to tell you how I felt about it. And that’s, that’s my point of view. That’s my sense of what took place. It wasn’t in any way what I was trying to take away from the rigor of the class; in fact, the opposite of that. I really wanted to enforce the rigor, whereas I was met with a lot of resistance. TDR: I’ve spoken to some of the people involved in this specific incident. Is it true that after the whole applause incident, you said that it was a good discussion and you were pleased with the way things turned out? PV: That’s not true. TDR: That’s just what I had heard, so you deny that? PV: Yeah, I deny it, I completely deny it. I was certainly not in the frame of mind to say something that would take that much decorum, actually, to take that much graciousness. TDR: Okay. Tell me if I’m wrong, but after the incident, you didn’t attend class for the next week. Why was that? PV: I was on doctor’s orders. TDR: What did the doctor say? PV: I went to the doctor because over the weekend I had basically been—I don’t know how to put it—I had basically been crying to my husband, and he said “Why don’t you go to the doctor, see what she can do for you. Maybe this is something you could talk to the doctor about, get some advice.” So I did, and what she recommended was not to attend class for—she recommended not to go back for a full week, and I said no, I wanted to go back on Friday. I was going to have class on Friday, but it was Winter Carnival weekend, and the doctor’s orders were: “You’ve just been through a lot in the past few months, you know, so much that you should really take kind of a break. You should take a break from the whole situation for awhile, step back,” do you know what I mean? That really helped, but when I came back—I probably needed a two-week break, I don’t know, I’m not a doctor—but I said I’m going to try to go back on Thursday or Friday. I scheduled class on Friday, and I got a lot of complaints that said “This is Winter Carnival weekend, you can’t hold class on Friday.” And I said “Okay, I’ll schedule class on Monday.” And this is how the thing went, back and forth, it was like any time I was trying to enforce any kind of goodwill or good-naturedness or anything like that with the students, they were just so like, um, demanding, they just demanded more. You could do nothing to please them. If you praised them, they’d intimate “You don’t have the authority to praise us.” If you criticized them, they’d say “You don’t have the authority to criticize.” So what do you do? You try to teach them, they’d argue with your ideas, and they’d be very rude and hostile. It was a no-win situation for me. There was nothing I could do to meet the demands of the students. As I was saying earlier, that’s not the classroom setting. The classroom setting is where students meet the expectations of the professor. TDR: So you say that students should meet the expectations of the professor, but the professor shouldn’t meet the expectations of the student? PV: Well, I think it’s a dialectic; I think that’s what they call a dialectic. It’s a two-way street, right? It shouldn’t be a one-way street, and I agree with you. I think that the professor should be attuned to the students’ needs. I think that’s probably a good way of putting it, and the students are there to meet the expectations of the professor and to respect the professor. But to be playing constant devil’s advocate all the time and be difficult in that way was so degrading. TDR: Couldn’t it be said that an important part of the educational process is this kind of back-and-forth questioning of ideas, and many would argue that that’s very important, and that professors’ ideas should be questioned. What do you think? PV: Yeah, I think professors are not immune from being questioned. I’m not saying that these scholars I’ve studied should not be questioned, but the comments I was getting on my papers were like “Oh, this thinker is like, the worst writer in the whole wide world,” or “This thinker thinks they know everything,” and I would be getting irrational things from them. These weren’t thoughtful statements; they were irrational. TDR: Some questions about the course in general: one thing that’s come up is this frequent discussion of postmodernism, which a lot of the students I’ve talked to still can’t really define. Can you tell me what postmodernism is? PV: Postmodernism has different definitions, but I’m going to give you the definition according to the guy that invented the term—and he’s Jean-François Lyotard. He wrote a book called The Postmodern Condition, which was published in 1984 in America. The book basically outlines what is called the state of knowledge in post-industrial societies, that because of the influx of computer knowledge, information society, that we are going to have a change in what is known as expert knowledge versus lay knowledge. And I’m sure this will resonate with you because when you go to the computer, you access the Internet and you can get all this information. Prior to the computer industry or information technology, this was not possible. There was a strict division between expert knowledge and lay knowledge. Expert knowledge of course would be defined as science; science was, according to positivism, the way by which we arrive at knowledge, a truth by the scientific method. Postmodernism was a challenge to that. It challenged the fact that science was the only way of arriving at truth. It was saying that we would have a leveling of the playing field in knowledge. The second thing that it’s about is art, which in the period of modernism and literature—when you go back to [Emile] Zola or the modernist authors—for them, for them art was about the misting of reality. And art should follow the scientific method—that literature and art should follow the tenets of science. According to Lyotard, in the postmodern society, art and literature were going to be in something of a dichotomous relationship with science. In other words, art and literature were going to be now put on the same level as science. There’s another element to postmodernism prior to the information society in philosophy. The philosophy was about going after knowledge for knowledge’s sake, so you had people just talking about philology, biology, economics, just for the sake of knowledge. But for Lyotard, knowledge would be about efficiency; it would be about doing things better. Knowledge would be not for the sake of knowledge, but for the sake of productivity and technical efficiency. So that’s what postmodernism is about; it has nothing to do with the overthrowing of capitalism. It has nothing to do with it; in fact, postmodernism appropriated many of the tenets of capitalism in what it was talking about. It was not considered a liberal or leftist way of looking at life, although many postmodernists have been thought of as being left-wing or liberal. It was not in any way like that—I just wanted to quality that. TDR: One of the complaints from many of the students is that the course featured a lot of postmodernist and feminist sort of thinking that was not necessarily described in the course description, and they were a little surprised by what they actually found when they got to the course. Do you think that the way you presented the course initially matched up with those more abstract theories that you covered in the class? PV: Yes. Possibly what I could have done… I don’t remember the course description, to be honest; but the course description was approved by Tom Cormen. And Tom Cormen knew the reading materials; he interviewed me, so he knew what my teaching philosophy was like. He never discussed the course with me, I have to admit, but Tom Cormen approved that course description, okay? So if there was any illegitimacy about it, he should have approached me about that; I don’t really remember the course description, so I can’t really comment on that, but I don’t remember if I put those readings on there. So basically the complaint is that it was too heavy on—what were the complaints about exactly? TDR: What I’ve heard is that students went into the course expecting something very different from what they got, with its emphasis on feminism and postmodernism and less standard theories than you’d find in an introductory class made them wonder what they had really signed up for. PV: Yeah, I mean… [long pause] I don’t know how to answer that because I wrote that a specific portion of the course was on the debates—they really enjoyed the debates about global warming, stem cell research, and the Human Genome Project—so I know that I spent a significant portion on the debates. What I don’t understand is that there were many students who were very very satisfied with the course. I mean, there were students in the fall term, not winter term—winter term just got into a disaster—but fall term I remember there were a lot of students who came into my class with their final projects, and they would shake my hand and say “Thank you for the course.” They were very polite; I don’t know why they’re not coming forward and saying “She was a pretty good instructor.” I don’t know why. The only other thing I want to add is that there were some complaints I wasn’t respecting people’s opinions on specific arguments if they didn’t agree with mine. I remember many times saying to the student, “I think it’s a brilliant statement. I don’t agree with it, but it’s a brilliant statement.” I know I said that many times. TDR: One thing I heard today from several students was that during one class when you got frustrated that you said something along the lines of that the students weren’t fit to be Ivy League students. PV: No, I never said that. On what grounds would I say something like that? I’m not on the Admissions Committee, all right? I can’t say that. TDR: So you deny that? PV: Yeah, of course! I never said that. TDR: Okay, another question. You have two Ph.Ds, is that correct? Or a Master’s and a Ph.D? What are they both in, just to remind me? PV: I have a Master’s in genetics and a Ph.D in literature. TDR: Okay, and so how do you think your degree in literature relates to a course in science and technology? PV: Well, my doctoral studies focused on science and literary theory. I’m going to refer you to my book, which is called Molecular Biology in Narrative Form. And I think I have a chapter there on historical and sociology frameworks. I can show you some of my publications; they’re with me here. I have close to—I had a paper in Exit 9 called “The Dialogue on the Scientific Method.” I have an article coming in Social Semiotics on the entry of postmodernism into laboratory science. I have an article in another edited collection called Discovery in Molecular Biology and Continental Philosophy. Right now I’m working on my second manuscript, which is called Narrative Theory in Science Studies: Bridging the Two Cultures. So my publications attest to my knowledge of science and technology studies. Most of the conferences I’ve been to have been on science studies. Some of them have been on literature studies, but most of them have been on science studies. TDR: Could you ever see yourself working in the Dartmouth—undergraduate—College Community again? PV: Right now, I anticipate no. I don’t know how things may change, but right now, I don’t anticipate coming back to the East Coast. I think it’s just a different culture, and my goal is to go back to California, because I really like California. I don’t know. TDR: You’re at Northwestern right now, right? PV: I am at Northwestern, and I’m really enjoying it now, but word has gone out at Northwestern about my suit, so I don’t know if I should tell you... I don’t know what’s going to happen here, but hopefully, I won’t have too much of a fallout. I don’t want my career to suffer here, you know. People here have heard about my suit, so I kind of want to like, you know, withdraw at this point [as of press time, she has told TDR that she is now pursuing legal action], because I thought I could do it on a very private scale, but I can’t, unfortunately. Unfortunately that’s going to work in Dartmouth’s interests rather than mine in terms of addressing my grievances, so whether my grievances will be addressed, I don’t know, but at least I can write a book about it. I’m already starting to write a book, so, yeah, that’s all I can do. TDR: Have you had any discussions with Dartmouth about addressing your grievances? PV: Yeah, I talked about it with one of the deans. He recommended seeing a general counsel. I am trying to go to the Dartmouth presses to see if my grievances can be addressed, but actually, you know what? I think I’m just persona non grata there because of what happened… I know I was going to alienate people, but when this level of distress is caused for an individual, I just think that there should be more responsibility out there about what goes on in terms of academic discussion. And I think one of the problems is that you know, someone like me… my academic interests aren’t disciplinary, and they’re not mainstream. So when you ask “What is postmodernism?” People don’t really understand a lot of the things I’m working on, and when people don’t understand things, they kind of get into attack mode. Rather than try to understand it, they prefer to attack than try to understand it. That’s not just about Dartmouth, but I think that’s about many, many, many places and situations. So I have may have been facing that. And I also wanted to add about Professor Cormen and Dr. Lowery, who in my opinion are men of science. They think that their knowledge is the only knowledge worth having. They think their work is the only work that should be done; that’s just the impression that I got from them. When someone comes and tries to problematize something that they’re doing, which is science and technology—this is something I was facing with the students—they get very combative and hostile and resistant. So I think that—and this is how I’m going to conclude this interview—that what I was facing with the students was really similar to what I was facing with Cormen and Lowery, with attitudes about their work, there was no room for questioning it. And I think it’s very anti-intellectual; that’s one of the things I mentioned in the article, that that’s a very anti-intellectual thing to do. TDR: And just one more question—and now that you’re withdrawing your suit [she is now pursuing legal action], would you like to take this time to apologize to the set of students that you named? PV: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. This is not to absolve them of the wrongdoing that they did—they did a real number on me. They did a real number on me. I can talk at length about postmodernism and stuff, but they should treat me as a human being; if they can’t realize that at this stage in their life, then that’s really disturbing. I’m not apologizing to any member of the Dartmouth community; I still have the same grievances. I am showing the same indifference to the Dartmouth community as they showed to me. It’s like, what comes around goes around. And it’s not vindictive, but that’s rather just the way it is. You show indifference, then that indifference gets returned. And this is because I don’t want my family to suffer. I don’t want my family to get dragged into this, and I don’t want any other place that I go to get dragged into this. There are different institutions, and hopefully, wherever I’m at, it will be a really healthy place for me, but I want this to kind of blow over at this point. I think it’s in everyone’s best interest. I think it’s really nice of you to do this, because I feel that it’s getting my story out there, and that’s the most I can ask for, and I really thank you for doing that and not taking me out of context. That’s great. Thanks. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 3:51 PM (47 comments) Stop the Presses: The Dartmouth Review Mistreats Minorities"It goes without saying that a lot of underrepresented groups feel mistreated here, whether it’s by the Greek system, The Dartmouth Review or just the people they engage with on a daily basis."Jordan Osserman '11's editorial in the D today about the necessity of choosing a female, non-heterosexual, or minority President is truly a treasure. In addition to the above quote, it yielded such gems as: "And as the Board of Trustees continues its search for the next leader of the Big Green, it’s time we set a new requirement: straight white men need not apply." Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by Christine S. Tian at 1:19 PM (7 comments) Tuesday, April 29, 2008Venkatesan drops lawsuit plans--NevermindUPDATE 8:45pm: In further correspondence with the Review, Venkatesan has stated that she changed her mind and still plans on pursuing legal action against the College.Earlier today, Review reporter Tyler Brace had a phone conversation with Priya Venkatesan, who informed us that she no longer planned to bring a lawsuit against the College. Venkatesan also confirmed that she is now a research assistant at Northwestern University. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by M. Heddaya at 5:09 PM (11 comments) Administration: no merit to a potential lawsuitHere is the email Dean Zimmerman sent out following the Sunday meeting with the former students of Priya Venkatesan. The blitz, below the fold.Date: 28 Apr 2008 09:29:08 -0400 Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by M. Heddaya at 1:59 PM (12 comments) Trustee Letter Upsets AlumsAlumni have been contacting The Dartmouth Review en masse about the trustee letter sent out to them last night. Here's a sample response, representative of most of the feedback we've been getting, below the fold.WOW! Alumni, except those who are Trustees chosen by the administration, are all a bunch of idiots who can't think for themselves. They might be under the sevengali-like spell of "organizations" with "AGENDAS!" When the administration and its lackey Trustees stop acting like Stalinists trying to shove their cramped, narrow, ideas about the college down everybody's throats, perhaps law suits wouldn't be necessary. But they sure were in Daniel Webster's day, and appear to be equally necessary today. And by the way, the lawsuit was started before Wright said he might leave in a year, so your cause and effect for confusion is 180 degrees off-kilter. Talk about agendas! You apparently don't like your fellow elected Trustees, so you are trying to marginalize them with the Boogey-Men of the Dartmouth Review and Hanover Institute, the Review's fundraising arm. Don't you people believe in academic freedom, the right to disagree successfully, the right to suggest alternatives? Apparently not. UPDATE: Just a quick note: the Hanover Institute is actually not the Review's fundraising arm. In the note above, I think it may be unclear whether Mr. Gridley himself is asserting that the Hanover Institute is the Review's "fundraising arm," or if that is the impression Dartmouth Undying is giving to alums such as Mr. Gridley. In either case, the assertion is wrong. Thanks. -Emily Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by Emily Esfahani-Smith at 11:39 AM (22 comments) Mirengoff Responds to Trustee LetterAt Power Line, below the fold:
Full post, here. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 10:38 AM (7 comments) Monday, April 28, 2008Trustee Letter to AlumsThis just in: the trustees sent out this letter below to Dartmouth alums in the wake of the Association of Alumni election. The election's voting period begins today. Twelve of the sixteen official trustees signed the letter; the four petition trustees have not attached their names to the letter.Voting takes place here. The letter, after the jump. Dear fellow Dartmouth alumni, Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by Emily Esfahani-Smith at 8:33 PM (8 comments) Apology from Alex FelixFrom: Alexander J. Felix Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 6:54 PM (14 comments) Spring is in the AirJust got two of these within a second. Double the fun for me, I guess. Below the fold.
Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by W. Aubin at 4:41 PM (4 comments) Trustee Peter Robinson on the ElectionFrom NRO's the Corner, after the jump:
Full post, here. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 4:32 PM (12 comments) Bonnie Lam Member of Dartmouth UndyingWe have just discovered that Bonnie Lam's name is listed on the "Who We Are" portion of the Dartmouth Undying website. Not only is Bonnie Lam the only '10 member of Dartmouth Undying, she is one of relatively few current students who are members of the organization that claims broad student support."The message was created, prepared and signed solely by students. Dartmouth Undying did not solicit this message." - Bonnie Lam in the text of the original letter. P.S. I'll add that there are only 12 current students who are members. Nine members of the class of 2008, and one each for the following three years. —A.S. P.P.S. It's been correctly pointed out in the comments that the list we linked to was one of supporters, not members. The difference between the two is unclear at this point. I think the big story here is how few students have signed on—or relatively small story, as it were. —A.S. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by M. Heddaya at 11:11 AM (4 comments) AoA Election Begins TodayThe AoA election, which begins today, is essentially a referendum on the Association led lawsuit. The lawsuit is in response to the Board of Trustees' announced intention to change the proportion of alumni-elected trustees to appointed trustees from 50/50 to 33/67 (the proportion does not include ex officio trustees). There have been claims that the lawsuit is sullying Dartmouth's name, but the lawsuit would not have been necessary had the Board honored an agreement with more than one hundred years behind it. Let this be clear: we are not against expanding the Board; we are against the unproportional expansion of the Board. Every time the Board's size has been increased since 1891, the increase has been proportional.More, beneath the fold. This is an important juncture in history of the College. The next president must recommit the College to the undergraduate experience, to the importance of a liberal arts education. This, coupled with increased transparency in the administration, is what we—along with many students and alumni—are looking for. This concern has largely fueled the recent victories of petition trustees. Now the Board is changing the rules mid-game. The reason Chairman Ed Haldeman '69 gave for not increasing the number of alumni-elected trustees was the contentious nature of recent elections. The last few U.S. presidential elections are recent proof that elections become most contentious when more oversight is needed in the governing process. From whom will the increased oversight come, if not from alumni? For this reason, The Dartmouth Review has endorsed the petition slate in the AoA election. Their names, below: Officers: J. Michael Murphy '61 Bert Boles '80 Paul Mirengoff '71 F. Marian Chambers '76 Committee Members: Frank Gado '58 Zach Hafer '99 Alexander X. Mooney '93 Richard Roberts '83 Marjory Grant Ross '81 John Steel '54 Charles J. Urstadt '49 More information on the petition candidates can be found here. To vote, go here. Full post and comments below the fold. Posted by A.S. Erickson at 12:03 AM (33 comments) |
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